| Neil Fletcher - Head above waves, just! |
Whether we, as professional B2B sales people, like it or not, buying methods are changing. We are being invited into the conversation later and later, if at all. All too often we arrive at the party to find out that we are just making up the numbers and the big decisions - like "Whose 'stuff' shall we buy?" - have already been made.
For a good chunk of my sales career, I've dealt with prospects and customers outside the UK. Just picking up the phone or jumping in the car are not always an option because of time differences, language issues and the fact that cars don't work too well in water. So I've always had to be a little creative in getting hold of people.
When I started out it was letter and telex, then fax and then, joy of joys, e-mail. (I've hyperlinked 'telex' so that all you youngsters, i.e. anyone younger than me, knows what I'm talking about.)
Whilst I still use telephone, e-mail and (very occasionally) fax, I've started playing with some of the new toys around.
Hands up who has a LinkedIn profile?
Did you do the same as me; put together a basic profile, stick in a few buzzwords and sit back waiting for the contacts and prospects to be queuing up? Doesn't work, does it?
Have you taken it a step further and joined a discussion group and set out your stall by starting a 'discussion' that consists of you telling the world how great you, your products and your company are? The clue is in the name; it's a discussion group, not a shop window. Just cruise a few groups to see how easy it is to make an idiot of yourself by talking and not listening. Better still, get shirty with those who call you out and watch your credibility plummet!
One of the real strengths of sales people is that we are good at this two-way thing called having conversations. We recognise that there is a time to speak and a time to listen. In this brave new world, it's just the medium that is changing. The conversation is now on-line in e-mails, discussion groups and forums, Twitter, Facebook, blogs and probably many others I don't even know about.
I'm not advocating throwing out the baby with the bathwater. There is still a need for tried and tested sales methodologies to be used but you need to be in a position actually to use them in order for them to work.
So go on, what have you got to lose? Try a few comments on LI discussions - or here, with me, why not? Follow some interesting or relevant people on Twitter and re-tweet them, comment on a few blog posts, even start your own blog. If one medium doesn't work, try another. You might be surprised to re-discover how easy it is to connect with people.
Questions & Comments
Great summary
Hi Neil, great summary of the 'how to' for any LinkedIn user, particularly with regard to discussions. It amazes me how many people are only a step away from "you wanna take this outside then?" when challenged on their opinion or point of view.
On the other hand, it does make for some entertaining reading for the rest of us....
Posted by Adam Warren on
Re: Great Summary
Hi Adam, thank you for your kind words.
Yes, the entertainment value cannot be denied! The amazing thing to me is that people seem to forget that the 'conversation' is not just between the two of them but can be seen by many others. How easy it is to destroy a hard-won reputation with a few careless key strokes.
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
Not all sales people listen!
Hi Neil,
Nice article and definitely a good insight into the way in which sales people need to adapt their sales tools / ways / methodology to make the most of the changing technological landscape.
I am a business owner and receive many calls / emails / attempts to sell to me from a wide spectrum of sales people and I would like to add that not all sales people 'recognise that there is a time to speak and a time to listen', in fact the majority that contact me will do all they can to prevent me from speaking within the first few minutes of a conversation which is a complete turn off. I think your comment therefore needs a slight caveat in that in fact only good sales people recognise that there is a time to speak and a time to listen. And as we all know, like any other industry, not all sales people are good!
Posted by Kirsten Minshall on
Re: Not all sales people listen!
Hi Kirsten, thanks for your positive comments. I agree with your caveat wholeheartedly! Unfortunately, very many salespeople do not fall into the 'good' category. I think that part of the issue is with the general perception (at least in the UK) of sales being about coercing people into buying things they don't want or need. As a result, those with an eye on making a fast buck and hang the consequences are attracted to 'sales'. Part of the fault also lies with companies that perpetuate this idea and demand that their salespeople 'always be closing'. Step forward telecomms companies, particularly those that claim to be T-Mobile and insist that I will never be able to upgrade my phone or contract again unless I do it with them on the phone today. (Yes, it did get very personal!)
Sadly, I don't think the situation will change any time soon, despite the best efforts of a lot of very good salespeople striving to clean up the image of sales and put it on a more professional footing.
In the B2B world I think the quickest route to stamp out poor salesmanship is buy from someone who employs good salespeople (always assuming you have the option.) Quickest but still probably not very quick.
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
Re: Re: Not all sales people listen!
Hi Nick, not wishing to turn this discussion into a sales bashing one but I think it is interesting to have your insight into why sales people per say may be forced down a route (often by their companies) which inevitably leads to poor (and aggressive) sales techniques being employed.
Rounding my comment off and bringing it back to the topic, it is interesting that the technologies I am familiar with through the work my business does (web design, social media and the like) is something sales people are having to grapple with right now, and as your original article suggests, sometimes the ways in which sales people need to ingratiate themselves and make connections / contacts / have discussions which perhaps lead to sales is far more subtle than picking up a phone to make a cold call with a script or blasting millions of emails out to all and sundry. It is often a matter of bringing something to the table (within networks) before you can take something out. People catch on very quickly when they feel an ?imposter? is amongst them and therefore a genuine passion for the field and the ability to communicate beyond the ?sale? is important.
Posted by Kirsten Minshall on
Re: Not all Sales people listen
Hi Kirsten
Thanks for your further comments. I don't know about insight but I can certainly offer an opinion! :-)
I'm not sure that people or companies are actually forced down the route you describe. I think they follow that route because they don't know any better. I'm sure (I hope!) that no-one knowingly does a bad job but if you don't know any better, you do the best you can with the tools you have, even if they are the wrong tools. I know I made some howlers in my early days through not knowing any better.
There's also the sad fact that aggression does actually bring results in some areas, particularly B2C sales where the 'buyer' also doesn't know any better than the sales person. After all, isn't this how sales people behave? I think the situation is a little different in a B2B environment when you have professional buyers at work.
I think the whole topic of cold calling and bad/good selling is currently being covered extremely well on the ModernSelling LI group under Neil Warren's ?What can we learn from those truly appalling cold calls and spam e-mails?? discussion. I recommend taking a look to see what other people are saying.
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
Appalling Cold Calls & Spam Emails
That topic is bound to get woven in to all the stuff here on the main site too, for example...
http://www.modernselling.com/news-and-events/sales-news-headlines/insulting-prospects-with-telesales-scripts-spam-email-testimonial-requests-Peter-Johnston-20113971.aspx
...but LinkedIn Groupees would indeed be welcome to join us, and the discussion is here...
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/What-can-we-learn-from-1328087.S.51998408
And it is true that we do all seem to learn a lot faster from looking at (or experiencing) "failure", than by reading about or being classroom-taught the "theory of success".
Posted by Neil Warren on
LinkedIn and making it work for sales
Some great insights here Neil, a couple more of the common traits from audience participation sessions I run:-
1) Who is on LinkedIn? Most hands up, normal 90% +
2) Who has looked at it in the last week? Straw poll average 50%
3) Who has used it to look for people to meet? Straw poll 20% (eek!)
4) Who has a photograph? Straw poll 40% of audience.
So that leaves 60%+ stood in the corner of a networking room with over 100m people in, not engaging, not looking for people to talk to and hiding their heads in a paper bag - please people it is just networking.
Best wishes,
James
The Linked In Man
Posted by James Potter on
Re: LinkedIn and making it work for sales
James
Thanks for adding some meat to the bones in the form of figures. I think we sales people are often guilty of looking for the ?quick fix? so we jump into things like LI without thinking it through properly. Then, when we find it doesn?t work exactly as we expected, we move on to the next ?big thing? looking for the next hit of instant gratification!
I?m guessing (but please tell me if I?m wrong) that your questions and responses have been with UK audiences. It would be interesting to see if that 60%+ inactive element was common across different geographical regions or is it just our British reticence expressing itself?
I came across this interesting infographic on the State of LinkedIn the other day. It puts the UK at 6 million users so if we use your 60%+ inactive figure that still gives us nearly 2.5 million active users in the UK, which is not too bad!
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
Re: LinkedIn...
Hmm, don't know why the hyperlink didn't work. The URL for the State of LinkedIn is
http://www.b2bsocialmediaguide.com/?p=635
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
Some more ....
6.426 Million in the UK right now and I seem to recall LinkedIn themselves admitting that a small % use all the functionality.
I think your right, my observation is that people jump in, do what they think is right without understanding it fully, experts are hard to find and it appears easy. But then we take professional advice from accountants, lawyers, so we don't much it up :) I'd be rubbish at law ... we are all good and have value in different niches and different is good - very good.
On a poll I am running right now (see http://linkd.in/kzC6F1) only 3% of respondees are getting close to full usage! 54% of respondents to now have a profile, connect their network but then don't look for people to meet.
It amazes me some of the people I meet, intelligent sharp people, that don't have a photograph (networking with a paper bag on your head doesn't work either) or don't actually engage (networking by standing in the back and not engaging in conversation also doesn't work) but then I shouldn't complain it is keeping me nicely busy.
Sample size 32 today, only 2 had tried to find people to meet, 3 not on LinkedIn and they weren't sales people ...
Interestingly been sat in a bar tonight with a global operations director of a 10,000+ staff 3000 store brand in Europe doing a did you know ... he never knew either ....
My observations to date are based on UK but am speaking at a convention to 400 VP types next month so will do an impromptu poll of them and see how the global audience responds, should be fun.
Thanks for the kindnote Neil.
Best wishes,
James
The Linked In Man
Posted by James Potter on
Hunting new client contacts on LinkedIn
I'm inexperienced at using LinkedIn to trace contact people in the user industries I want to sell into.
And I am also reluctant to do it this way because I probably wouldn't like to be approached in this way myself, other peoples' approaches aren't as suave as mine!
And also because the products I sold (I'm currently unemployed and looking for a new position) were high-value hardware systems and support services which could only be sold over extended face-to-face contact with customers.
This needed me to know who the potential buyers were, and to approach them by a personal introductory meeting, investigate the customer's environment and short-term and long-term needs, followed up with product presentations and proposals, leading the customer on to opening RFQs and tenders. Sometimes this took years of confidence building.
Now to approach say a Data Centre manager via LinkedIn by email saying "Hi John, I see you are IT Director, and responsible for your company's IT systems. I work for XXX, we sell servers and storage, and we also provide independent maintenance services for all IT systems, our website is (URL). I would like to meet with you for about half an hour, this week if possible, can you please let me know when would be a good day and time for you?"
How would you receive this if I sent it to you? I have been deliberately pushy to get a date and time, but would you feel this particular approach or wording is a little too forward in an initial contact, or would you accept it as meant and set a meeting? I haven't given "John" the option to pass me to a junior, deliberately.
In stark contrast, if I were selling insurance or Sky TV, then yes I would use telesales, but networking? No.
On the other hand if I were a timeshare seller or recruiter (with a senior position because no recruiter employee would put this effort into it) then I would naturally look to social networking to meet both candidates and clients.
But if I were selling stationery? What approach would be most effective in prospecting new clients?
If you get my drift, tell me what you read here in my post, but also indicate if my hypothetical IT sales approach to an IT Director via LinkedIn would be acceptable? (I would in fact do it just like that and have, although the contact persons were not found online but by calling the organisations).
Thanks.
Posted by Jim Matthews (HARE) on
re: Hunting new client contacts on LinkedIn
Hi Jim
I have read your post and whilst I understand the logical conclusion you have drawn I think it starts with a misunderstanding of what LinkedIn actually is (or can do) as a premise for the argument. LinkedIn can be many things to many people but I would not advocate using it as a direct sales tool for the type of products you were selling or indeed for the services my business provides (website design).
LinkedIn isn?t just a direct sales tool like telesales where you can quantify results easily; it can be more subtle than that, it can be about profile building, PR and marketing. For instance, in my area of business (online technology) it is important for us to be known as knowledgeable in our field and one way of doing that is by blogging, keeping LinkedIn profiles up to date, making public some of our technical findings and code and so on; LinkedIn is one of the tools whereby this can be achieved, it helps us to raise our profile and establish us in our industry and with that helps us to sell our services. Whilst I have never sold directly via LinkedIn you can be 100% sure that prospective customers have looked at my profile, reviewed the recommendations I have and read various tweets and blog posts and as such it has likely helped cement some deals.
In the same light, selling high value hardware systems is the same, in order to be taken seriously I would imagine that your knowledge and profile are very important; LinkedIn can help you to project your technical prowess and raise your profile in the sector even if you do not sell directly through it.
I have said this before that individual social media channels are misunderstood; they are not a sales strategy in themselves, they are tools within a sales strategy and form part of your sales and marketing armoury. This is why a social media strategy must come before using the various social media tools (such as LinkedIn) to do anything.
To re-iterate this, LinkedIn is another tool which can help you raise your profile, establish yourself in a given industry, maintain and build relationships with existing customers and another channel for marketing yourself and your services (and of course lots more besides). I would suggest it is therefore not comparable to cold calling, telesales or other similar direct sales techniques?
Interesting reading:
http://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/7-steps-for-a-successful-social-media-strategy
Posted by Kirsten Minshall on
re: Hunting new client contacts on LinkedIn
Thanks Kirsten, you have reinforced my own impressions.
As a meeting room it is of course invaluable, and as a very few others have also said, it's not a place to try direct selling for services and products. Except that maybe if I had special sale item offers on limited time it might well work!
e.g. "Hurry! One hundred Bogswash Washer driers only, at a fantastic 40% discount! Only until 31st July! Don't miss out, CALL us NOW!"
(I'm being frivolous, but someone must have done this already and many will probably do it once they realise too).
My query arose because many others have said they have made huge sales directly as a result of their knowledge of using LinkedIn as a way to approach new clients. This can be (mis)understood in many ways. :)
As LinkedIn is (and quite rightly so) open to everyone to post as an "expert", I often encounter the old proverb of "a billion flies can't be wrong, manure tastes good!" in the sense that I have seen so many untrue statements about products and technologies in my field which are supported and propagated by many others who are also misinformed, or trying over-zealously to sell their own product by placing it in a higher category where it has no rightful place.
Trying to clarify the misinformation is very difficult, being the single voice that is saying something against the common flow. This misinformation is compounded by the misinformer being able to draw on written "evidence" posted by other misinformers all over the web! Aaaahhh, why try to put things straight, when it would result in the real expert being disbelieved and probably even discredited by so much contradictory "evidence"? ;)
But certainly for reaching people in target organisations, I think and believe that LinkedIn is second to none, as long as the seeker is polite, unintrusive and respectful to their potential targets, and I see that many are. The fact that so many LinkedIn members are also willing to travel some distance and regularly to network meetings is also obvious, and that is most definitely a very interesting and effective way to make the right connections, if they are there too. In the old days we used to join the same golf or sports club, or even flying club! That definitely worked!
But although I don't know this for sure, I fear that most networking meetings are really full of seekers, and not of targets?
I think this is where the successful "facilitators" are finding new niche business opportunities - feeding info and training to those many seekers and "wannabees", and turning them into targets! ;)
In the same way that some people who start their own businesses employ consultants to help them start or fix them, they may still lose their investment but the consultant has made his money. I draw a parallel with new restaurant businesses (I have a lot of hard-earned experience in this!) - they have to buy equipment and crockery and tables and chairs, and pay rent for the premises, and buy electricity, gas, water etc. - but then their business goes down the tubes, but the suppliers and landlords (the middlemen) do well. So - it's better to be a middle-man, selling "B2B" and not "B2C"!
Posted by Jim Matthews (HARE) on
As above...
So... did I kill this thread dead?
I was hoping for a little more debate, or have I hit all nails on't head unintentionally?
Or am I displaying an incorrigible trait? lol
Posted by Jim Matthews (HARE) on
Re: As above...
No Jim, you haven't killed it. In fact, you have revitalised it if you look at the dates. Thank you!
I've been away from a computer for the past few days and haven't yet had the time to formulate my own response. It will be coming in the next day or so, I promise!
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
As threatened, a fuller response!
Jim, thanks again for contributing to this thread. I feared it had died a death but it?s good to see it active again. With regard to your first post, I think Kirsten pretty much nailed it with his answer! Thanks for saving me the effort Kirsten! :-) I think the approach you describe would pretty much get the virtual door slammed in your face and bolted for a long time.
However, the alternative approach, having found ?John? might be to find out which groups he belongs to on LI, join them and monitor the various discussions. When John comments, you put across your point of view in the same discussion or discussions. No direct selling, not even a direct approach to John but you are putting yourself on his radar. If he?s a switched on sort of guy; he might be on Twitter ? follow him, comment on his tweets, analyse what are his areas of interest and start tweeting in the same areas. He might have a blog ? subscribe to the RSS feed and add comments, retweet his posts.
You get the picture. All the time you?re building credibility but not actually trying to sell him anything yet.
This approach should also help with the minsinformation issue you refer to you in your second post. Don?t try to correct those who are wrong, just be consistent in putting across your expertise, do it often and identify supporting information. If you can, get this supporting information from industry leaders, key influencers and the like. The great thing about the internet is that content hangs around for a long time. The more you post the correct view of things, the more likely it is to be found and believed/trusted.
If you are very lucky, you won?t have to approach John, he will come to you because you have built up his trust levels. If he doesn?t approach you, then you can approach him when you judge the time is right. You?ve got the experience of long sales cycles ? you will know when the time is right!
Even if your timing is off, John will be far more likely to let you know when you should be talking to him, rather than just shut the door in your face.
I wish I could claim credit for all of this but I?ve basically stolen the idea from Steven Covey! This is just an updated way of putting deposits into the emotional bank account of your prospects. The more you do it selflessly, the more likely you are to be able to make that withdrawal when it comes to asking for the order.
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
...as above
Yep good points Neil.
By the way, did you intend this to be an any-related-subject discussion thread? That would be very useful.
The one thing I would add to the current discussion, is that since face-to-face meetings over a long period are crucial to the types of products and services that I sold, I would still get an early meeting with John, using my resilience, so the LinkedIn communications would also bolster a good relationship, but in parallel.
But of course not by the "OK, now slam the door on me!" way! lol
Good to see the thread revived, hope others will also chip in to add to the wealth of brainstorming.
Despite some of the tongue-in-cheek "fishing" comments that I have made, I do believe this is the type of contact and rapport that every sales person and many customers need.
Posted by Jim Matthews (HARE) on
Intentions
Glad you liked the points! The thread was suggested by Neil (you know, the other one ? the Big Fella) and the intention was and is to present a regular view from the frontline of modern selling. This is the first; the second is under heavy revision (by me) at the moment. However, feel free to chip in with anything related ? I don?t have any objections to that and I?m sure Neil won?t.
I see myself as just a regular sales guy who happens to have grasped the idea that prospects are using new ways to find out information about products and services and if we want to continue selling to them, we also have to embrace those new ideas.
I think a common misconception is that the brave new world of Sales 2.0 replaces what came before. Not a bit of it! We still need to employ a lot of the established sales techniques in order to win the business. I?m with you 100% on the need for face-to-face over a long period for big ticket items or complex solutions ? I would struggle to do my job without getting out of the office and into a steel mill every now and then.
All that LI, Twitter, Facebook and the like do is facilitate the first conversation. You still need to know how to uncover objections, meet needs and close the sale!
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
Alife in Wonderland
<---- "Big Fella" him sit on monster mushroom somewhere, grinning like a Cheshire Cat!
Posted by Neil Warren on
"Big Fella"
Umm...
I always associated you with an altogether more jovial and at the same time genuinely informative character, more like this one perhaps, Neil? :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgbntWU7pG8
More in keeping with mushrooms... magic ones?! ;)
Come, make an avatar and join me for a brief time, we need a modicum of fun from time to time! lol
Posted by Jim Matthews (HARE) on
Hooks, Hookers and Hookahs
To much to say here Jim about the PC issues (the politically correct ones) of Lewis Carroll teaching us all to enjoy a "relaxing" smoke.
I'm more aware than ever now though, as I get to the end of "eselling" (that other great fantasy novel), that I might have upwards of 10,000 places where this treasured face of mine (well me Mam and Mrs W seem to like it) is "talking" - and mostly to the assembled business audiences I've been addressing over the last 3-4 or so years since I put it there.
And we don't want to frighten the horses, now do we?
Posted by Neil Warren on
Note to self
<---- Save up and get an "edit" facility on here Neil!
"Too much to say...." - idiot ;-)
Posted by Neil Warren on
Tsk Tsk!
Neil, it's not you, it's your keyboard - it has a mind of its own, as does mine.
Neil (Fletcher): What's your experience of the differences in selling today, compared to "yesterday"? Are you still hot-footing it up and down the motorways regularly, or are you doing more phone-work with the same level of success?
If you have been doing the same thing with the same customers I understand of course that you can reduce your personal long-distance visits, since you have already established a good relationship.
Another open question - is it time to forget our traditional working fo a company, selling of "own products", and look for opportunities to go self-employed and import and sell Chinese? (If you can't beat them, join them?)
Posted by Jim Matthews (HARE) on
Motorways and Chinese imports
Jim, I haven?t ploughed up and down the motorway for many a long year mostly due to the fact that the majority of my customers have been outside the UK in that time.
In terms of how have things changed, I don?t think my experiences are any different from a lot of those reported hereabouts. Voicemail and e-mail are the new gatekeepers, prospects are less willing to spend time seeing you, when (if) you do get to see them they are already well-informed about your products and those of your competitors, far too many discussions start with price and don?t consider value.
I think this last point is pretty much a result of doing buyers doing their research on-line and not actually talking to a salesperson. If the only information they are collecting is on-line, all they can compare (generally) are specifications so it pretty much comes down to price, in their mind. I?ve yet to see a company that does a good job of differentiating itself from its competitors on-line without the differences being eroded very rapidly. More than ever it?s a constant race to stay ahead of the game or to catch up.
I like the idea of self-employed but I don?t personally think that importing Chinese goods is the way forward! You?ll be fine until your competitor starts importing Vietnamese or Malaysian or Philippine products, which are even cheaper. It does just become a race to the bottom.
What comes next is easy to say but very hard to do! The way forward for the small company or individual business person, in my opinion, is to have expertise and/or knowledge that can?t easily be replicated by your low cost counterpart in another part of the world. I guess a good example is the call centre ? yes, a great idea to shift it to a low cost economy but bad idea when cultural and language differences just end up frustrating the people you are trying to serve. You don?t hear many complaints in the UK that you had to deal with a Scottish or Scouse or Mancunian accent when you called your bank.
Globalisation is great if you are making and selling widgets or you need ?boilerplate? coding or whatever. Localisation is the key if you are selling deep knowledge and expertise.
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
Dead Thread?
See, Jim, that's the way to do it!
Thinking a bit more about your 'traditional working' question I'm seeing more and more people working for themselves but with portfolio careers. That is, a little bit of consulting a couple of days, some training on a couple of days, some affiliate selling through their website and so on. I think the days of 9-5 five days a week with a regular and consistent salary are gone for a lot of people (and have never started for others). The agile thinkers and the risk-takers are the ones who will prosper. Mind you, it was ever thus!
Posted by Neil Fletcher on
Well yep...!
Yes, I am also doing that Neil... Some painting for a few days, take a long break, repair some fencing maybe, making lots of applications with no fear of many responses, waiting months for a bit more decorating...
Yes, life has changed.
I think it's time for a major war to reduce the population. but knowing my luck... I'll probably be killed in the first wave!
So maybe that's not such a good idea...
Libya...? Should be able to get some painting work out there, maybe? ;)
Posted by Jim Matthews (HARE) on
Career opportunities in war zones...
Couldn't resist jumping in with my size 12 hob-nails here chaps (sorry), but found a free-access documentary on the US pre-planning and post "shock-and-awe" Iraq - relating to the rebuilding plans...
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/no-end-in-sight/
It is 2 hours and I've only done the first 30 minutes, so far, but got to this documentary maker (Charles Ferguson), via the must-watch "Inside Job" - trailer here...
http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi751502873/
...pointing out how a career in domestic or international Financial Services - or anything that had an element of lending and borrowing in it - might similarly have had a fly in the ointment, from the get-go (or Gekko is it? ;-)
Posted by Neil Warren on
My Question / Comment Is...
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